Esports Growth During the Pandemic

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Dr. Joey Gawrysiak, Director of Esports at Shenandoah University talks about the “more than games” reality of esports’ growth this year from a cross-disciplinary program standpoint, from a broadcasting standpoint, and from a public safety standpoint.

We' really expanded the programs on theacademic side of Eport, so offer a lot of opportunities for students tounderstand the industry and Ese sports far beyond the gaming side of it. You're listening to enrolment growth,university from helics education, the best professional development podcastfor higher education leaders looking to Growin Romant at their college oruniversity, whether you're looking for fresh and romant growth techniques andstrategies or tools and resources, you've come to the right place. Let'sget into the show, welcome back to anroman growthuniversity, a proud member of the connect Edu podcast network, I'm EricWolson with helicks education and we're here today with Joey CARISIAC directorof he sports at Chennandella University Joey. Welcome to the show thanks Harthanks for having me looking forward to the conversation looking forward totalking with you today about the growth of esports during the pandemic,especially a Chenendoa. But before we dig in, can you g listeners a littlebit of background on both Shanandella University and your world? There sureso. Shenado University is a small private, liberal Arts Institution, anwinchestof Virginia beautiful setting here in the Shinadoa valley and abouttwo HSAND Undergrad, two thousand graduate students. We've had an esportsprogram here for two and a half years on the competitive side and a year anda half on the academic side which will get into both of those a little lateron, and my role here is the director of Hee Sports, where I oversee everythingesspors related on campus, from curriculum development to staffing, tobudget to tournaments for playing in those are the things that I run here oncampus and you know, like I said: We've had it for about two and a half yearsnow it's weve run into a lot of mistakes and wee learned from thosemistakes, and it continues to grow, continue to drive enrollment and I'mexcited about where we're going to go with this and we'll talk about kind ofhow we got started, what the plans are going forward and how USSPORTS isgrowing on college campuses around but Shenandoa. Certainly I headod the gamepunintended. I guess when it comes to esports on a college campus yeah, it'sreally exciting to see what you're doing joy college e sports had alreadybeen growing rapidly in popularity before the pandemic, but theintriciteas may still be new to Manyn highred. To kick us off an his levelset us. Can you give us a high level of review of both esports in general, andyour e sports program, specifically at Chanadella sure yeah esports in general,especially at the collegiate level, is a lot like traditional college sports.Where now you have at a lot of universities, you have varcity teams,you have club teams, you might have recreational teams. A lot ofuniversities will offer scholarships some full ride. Scholarship, somepartial scholarships. There are coaches, there are jerseys. There are leaguesthat people compete in. There are national championships where studentsare competing for rings or jackets or trophies or just playing glory. Thereis prize pools for a lot of tournament, so it is a little unique in that regardcompared to some traditional athletics. But you know it really has taken off atthe collegiane level and a lot of times. What we see and what makes esports sogreat, is that it goes beyond that and that's where eports is at ShenandoUniversity. It goes beyond gaming and that's a tagline that we take veryseriously here and that esports yes, it is playing video games and competingand video games, and not that we're we're saying it's not playing gamesbecause it totally is, but there's so much more to e sports than just gamingand that's what a lot of universities are starting to tap into now andunderstand and to provide their students. Is that educationalopportunity that can be gained through the mechanism that is esports thingslike building character for students that you'd hear like traditional sportsright, you put kids and football an an early age to build character wel. Whatdoes that BEA? That means you know developing communication team work,skills, sportsmanship adaptability. All those things are important for studentsto learn in traditional sports. Well, the same thing can be learned throughesports now on a college campus or high...

...school for that matter and tricklingdown to middle school now, and so those are some of the things that we learnthrough the mechanism that is esports is you're, learning those samecharacter, building ideals that would transition to skill sets beyond collegeor beyond high school, and what a lot of schools now are also offering arthings like professional development, getting students ready for what is thatlife look like after college? They know full well that a lot of studentsparticipating iny sports at the college level are not going to be professionalgamers and make hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars, which iswhat the price pools are these days. Somehow is we've gotten to these ideasof you know millions of dollars at stake in these prize pools, and that'sgreat, I'm so glad hesesports has gotten there, but students have torealize that not everybody can make it as a professional gamer. Just like noteverybody can be the next Lebron James or the next Patrick Mahomes. You knowthose are great to strive for. Those ideals are amazing, but they're so fewand far between and there's so many more opportunities in e sports thanplaying games and being that progamer there's things working in the industryor working in Industryis tengential to the esports industry, and so collegesand universities are starting to pick up on well. What else can we offer,besides just playing games? What are the other opportunities that exist forus to provide our students through the mechanism that is he ports, becausethese ports, it's a passion project for a lot of students? Then they just wantto be involved in. They want to have the sense of community and and bondwith people with that are very like minded and have those same interestsand skillsets, and so it does provide them that that mechanism to developfriendships and socialize with other students and belong to something biggerthan themselves, because for a lot of these students, Eric they've neverbelonged to something bigger than themselves in an educationalinstitution, whether it's high school or College, a lot of them don't comefrom a traditional sports background. Some do you know we have students hereat Shenendoa that are on the tennis team or the soccer team, or thewrestling team or theyr part of the conservatory. Where theyre you know,they're in a an orchestra together, but e sports provides an opportunity beyondjust playing games and it is being something bigger than themselves areason for staying at school or going to school to get an education as partof that educational experience and that's what esports has to be. It hasto be part of what a university already does and what the mission is of acollege or university. thes sports at each school is going to be different.What it looks like at Shenandoa might be very different than what it lookslike at Marryville or Northwood, or Yuce, rivine or Utah or Harrisburg, andthat's okay. Every school is going to look a little different with theirresports program, but it should look like what university looks like it's apart of the greater whole. It's an additional offering that just providesthis opportunity to students and a lot of schools. They've struggled with that,because they're just getting started. Well, how do we start a program? Whatwhat Cos into starting a program? How do we attract students- and I tell them,will you hear you know Xy Andz, here's how you get started, but as you develop,you have to figure out what is your actual identity? How do you fit intothe larger educational mission of the institution so that you're part of theinstitution you're not a separate standalone silo or your own island awayfrom everybody else? You have to be integrated into that college experienceand that's not that we take whole heart of the Herat. Shinendo is that we wantour students having a solid callegiate experience with esports part of that,and I hope it's a big part of that, but it is just a part of that. We want themgoing Doun and socialize. Of course, grades and classes always come firstgetting that college education always comes first, when in a nationalchampionship, that'd be great that'd be awesome. I come from a tradional sportsbackground. I hope we went a national championship and every single game thatwe play, but I also know that that's not really in the realm of possibility,with the way that we operate in with the mission. It is that we have here,and so you know that that is what every school has to decide is how we fintitthat larger educational mission of the institution- and so that's where we seeeports now at the callegiate levels. We see it as an opportunity for students,an educational opportunity for the...

...students to belong to something biggerthan themselves that they take as part of the larger educational experience. Ilove that more than Games descripture joy, it's one of those more than games, moments fortunate anddo recently they caught my attention so for many institutions, a football gameoverhomecoming weekend classic tradition. It's where the communitycomes together was often also made impossible this year for you DU toCovid, talk about how your esports program was able to help replace thisevent, Yeah Eric. I love this story and I wish I could take credit for this,but I can't take full credit just like I can't take credit for a lot of things,because it's a total team effort. You know we have some great people in placehere and some great vision for what we can do with these sports. That does gobeyond gaming, that's more n than just playing a game, so F R for homecomingthis year. Obviously with covid and what's going on, we had to cancel ourfootball game, and so the idea came out as well. How do we still engage ouralumni bases? How do we still engage the community? How do we engage ourstudents, daring homecoming, especially for those seniors? How do we providethem? Some kind of experience, Ou opportunity, still celebrate homecoming,and so we thought well. E sports is the only essports is the only competitiongoing on on our college campus for the fall. There's no football, there's no,you know Lacrosse or soccer or field hockey or anything, but he sports canhappen because the nature of the game allows it to be where you can playremotely, and so we were able to get a virtual homecoming game playing a gameof Med with one of our football players, aure senior football player, and we gotin touch with another university Randolph Making College which big shoutout to them. We really appreciate them. Working with us and IV talked to theiresports director and said: Hey, let's play game in Baden for homecoming Wi.This is our home coming date. We love to play a game in Madden. Can you giveus a student there and he said absolutely, let's make it work, and sothey worked with us and we put on this madden match. Wer. We played a game ofmadden one versus one online. We played it from Ar esports arena. We brought inone of our football announcers that does the announcing at our footballgames, brought them into the arena brought inone of our eports people. That is very highly ranked in man across the country,got them behind our broadcast desk and let them do the playby play just as ifwe were watching an actual football game, we had it streamed on twitch. Wehad I streamed on Youtube. Here's the great part Aric. This is the awesomepart. We actually at halftime pause the game. We did our homecoming court wherewe crowned a homecoming king and a homecoming queen ind, a virtualceremony. We did the announciing, we brought them flowers and crowned themand everything. And then after the ceremony we got back to the second halfand we played the second half of Madden hising and with our nnouncers and ourcasters, we had some football players here in person. Of course, six feet,apart with masks on our president came out or provos came out to check thingsout. We had our athletic director and football coaches here, the crowd gotinto it. It was so much fun, and so I just kind of sat in the back and I wasjust laughing and cheering and yelling it was it was. Ericit was a lot of funin a situation that doesn't always allow for there to be a lot of fun. Youknow, and so I was just really happy that we were able to get our studentsinvolved. We had, I don't know how many concurrent viewers, I think, we're atlike seventy or eighty was our Max concurent bewership over twohsand totalviews of the homecoming match, and so you know I just appreciate all the workthat went into it all the thought that went into the students for coming outrandoph making for being part of it and helping us out by finding a student,letting US play them on a Saturday, and you know I can't tell you how excited Iwas to see it all come together and my favorite part was just having ourfootball announcer in a Brean, an esforts broadcast desk, watching thatand not knowing what the world was going on, but he was trying everythinghe could o keep up and and nouat like it was an actual football game and itwas so much fun to have and so great to do so. Yeah really great to do just oneof the the Mani things that a lot of schools did o try to keep things goingduring covid and using esports as that mechanism, an tha vehicle to do thingsthat are different outside the box,...

...that you know you wouldn't knoveotherwise thought about before covid hitn you had to kind of Pivit and anden be innovative and reevaluate things. So I just had such a great time. It wasso cool to do and it's something that we plan on doing going forward, knockon wood once covid is over D, and you know we're back to thes sinsome sense,a normal scene, we're able to have actual football games in real life irl,but we want to keep the esports component as part of our homecomingevents for homecoming weekend, in addition to the traditional footballgame going on now, love that story, Jo talk about the streaming investment andcosts that made that kind of rivalry possible and and what are the brand andengagement benefits of these live broadcast opportunities. Moving forward.Now that you had that technology- oh my gosh, I can't express how beneficialstreaming broadcasting and content creation is for for esports in general,but also for what we do here. It Shouldn Endo t give our students thatreal world experience so one of our big goals for this twenty. What is Thi WoThousand Twent Thanda Twenty One? That's a lot of Twentys, two thousandtwenotwsandand twenty one academic. Here, even before Covid, we had kind ofearmark that we were going to focus on our broadcast production, our contentcreation, our broadcast production are streaming of the events, so we investeda little bit of money, but you don't have to invest a ton of money intoproducing high quality content. What you need to invest is time, and it'sit's sweat. Equity is what it is, and so we really identified some studentsthat we knew Hod, O passion and a skill set that they wanted to help us outwith a broadcast production with creating content and graphic design,and you know stingers and transitions for ourbroadcast. We had students that wanted to get behind the broadcast desths todo the playby play ind the analysis fortit to do the research and put inthe effort to do the broadcasting and to do the interviews of the players youknow so the investments we made. Yes, we invested some money on equipment.You have to have some good equipment, especially software and hardware, tomake sure you have these broadcast going on. But after that is just makingsure you have the right people in the right positions to make it a successfulbroadcast, and so we had quickly identified those students. They took itto heart and they challenge each other to produce the best broadcast theycould. We looked at some other schools doing really high quality content,schools like boisy state, fantastic content, fantastic program and- and wesaid all right. What are they doing that we can? What can we borrow fromthem that we can make our own for this broadcast production? And so what wedid is that we've really been able to enhance our brand and extend or orreach by producing content on twitch and on Youtube because of the contentthat we're creating whether it's our matches that were playing with ourvarcity teams, whether it's putting up content to talk about the academicprograms that we offer here, whether it's like tonight, for example, we'restreaming a bunch of myself, some of the coaches mother. What we call theold heads in the program playing some video games and just talking talkingabout ports talking about life and and what we're doing during the break. Youknow just to kind of have that content out there, because people crave contentthat crave routine when it comes to that, and so it really was a groupeffort and a lot of students put a lot of time and energy in their own sweat,equity and to make in our broadcast what it is now and we've reimagined.What our setup looks like for next semester, we're going to continue togrow, we're going to have better capabilities to produce replays fornext semester. Our hot editing is going to really take off or we're purchasinga little bit more. As far as the hardware goes, one more PC that we candedicate to work in with our broadcast production, we're going to have somemore students come in and start getting their feet wet on that side of things,because it's such a critical part of the industry that students have tounderstand in order to work in a lot of parts of the esports industry and, tobe honest, not even e sports broadcast production, N and the things thatthey're learning go far beyond these ports. Yeah and that's true for the theeducational components we have for esports. Academic programs is that wewant to teach student skills that...

...doesn't pigeon hold them just into esports, but allows them to work and a lot of other industries. Learningconcepts, yes through the lins of esports, but can easily transition to anumber of other industries. I'm so glad Yugh brought up the contentreality and the broadcast realities here, because, five years or so ago,when twitch got big. I remember being that guy who said who would watch avideo game yeah and over time I became someone and even very, very recently,with Congress, woman Ocasso Cortez live streaming, her playing among us withthese gamers. I watched it with my daughter. It was so fun and we've sincewatched subsequence streams of those of those Gamers, and they help us learnhow to play the game ourselves, and these are professional streamers, whomake a solid living Yeh streaming video games to an audience. Do you think ofthis is Su retorical because you taste this a lot in your last answer, but doyou think of what you're building here as a potential media company in themaking and with all the cross, disciplinary opportunities that open upfour, your students moving forward as you had in that direction? You knowpossibly you know. If I had a crystal ball and could see what's going tohappen down the road, I could probably make a lot of money. You know andthat'd be nice, but you kN in of the day. THAT'S NOT H! That's not the end Ogoal we're trying to give our students every opportunity we can to besuccessful and I'm having this opportunity to work on the broadcastproduction side of things is another one of those opportunities along with anumber of other ones that were working on and trying to offer students. Youknow so this is this is kind of a slice of the pizza that we have here and andthat it just it makes up part of the program. Could it turn into somethingbigger down? The road absolutely is that at the end of the day, my biggestgoals to have a kind of media production firm or a separate company,you know not necessarily. I just want to make sure we'recontinuing to offerour students the best opportunity possible to be successful after college,getting those internships getting those jobs in either ine sports or tengentialDe Sports, because of all the things that we can offer. And yes, I wanted toget huge. I wanted to get as big as we can possibly get it as long as itdoesn't take away from the rest of what we're doing here with these sports joyfrom an online learning standpoint. Many see this year as a huge onlineexcelerants, while others are nervous that giving students such an emergencyonline experience this past spring actually may have set online educationback in a students trust in online education. Did you experience or seeany parallels to this in esports this year, since hes sports were the onlytravel, safe sports option, all eyes run you did you see that similaraxceller and happen? You know, I think so, and you know any time you're in anunfortunate situation like we are with with covid and what's going on, you tryto find opportunity in there. You know you try to find a way that number oneyou keep everybody safe. That is by far the first and foremost thing that youhave in mind is how do we keep everybody safe and how do we stillallow for growth and opportunity? How do we find those opportunities in there,and so I think that we did experience that accelerated pace for our espoartsprogram and that it certainly did grow because of the online nature ofeverything this semester. You know we did a lot of broadcast and we kind ofjust got started end of September and it was a bumpy road, but it kind offorced us to re reevaluate our program from the online perspective and forcedus to really focus on yes, the broadcast production, but also thesocial media that we're doing and how we're producing contenent social mediaand getting the word out about our program. Because, all of a sudden, wecan't travel to these land competition. These local area network competitions,every single competition is done remotely. Now shenandoa was hybrid forthe false semester, so we were able to keep our esports arena open students woCun come in with masks. Are we have plastic barriers between each of ourcomputer stations? They do have hands inatizes that they wiped on all theproducts you know before and after they use them. So we kept everything as safeas we could, and we luckily had no outbreaks for in our esports program inCovid, and so we were able to still at...

...least compete from campus during covid.We just competed everything completely online and it forced us to kind ofreevaluate how we do things online. What is it online nature of gaming?Look like how do we learn how to produce tournaments and events andbroadcast production and social media and connect with with the communityonline? And so we ran a lot of different kinds of promottions on oursocial media like give up an away gaming shairs if they followed us ontwitch or if you liked our instagram and facebook and twitter Accou, you hadyour interdenew chance to win. You know a new gaming share from from respawn,so things that we took advantage of, and it really accelerated us by havingalmost been forced to do everything online we. But we looked for thatopportunity of where we could focus our growth, and I think it did. I think itdid accelerate us probably and what we were going to concentrate the next twoor three years we did in two or three months. So I think absolutely becauseof the hand we were dealt you try to find those opportunities. I'm notsaying everything was great and it helped us out, because we were going tohave a grand opening for our esports arena here on campus last April, and ofcourse that didn't happen because we wanted a grand in person come check out,come see, come walk into our eports arena and obviously last April, that'snot going to happen in person and so yeah. There ware things that you knowthat we had to readjust on that side of things. So I think that it hurt us insome ways, but totally accelerated us in some other ways you tease thisearlier, but from an academic standpoint. Esports is growingprogramatically at Chenando as well talk about your brand new MBAconcentration that launched this fall and the initial interest ind feedbackfrom students about that yeah yeah. I mean academically. I really at that'swhere a lot of opportunity is for us here at Su, because I've been investedon that side for a number of years, and- and that is my first title or one of mytitles is associate, professor of e sports as well. I've been a professor Fsport management for the last six years here at Shenandoa. Until about twoyears ago, I transitioned over to EU sports because of the academicopportunities where I wrote, the esports curriculum as one of the firstesports majors in the country. We have it's multitrack, but then we alsodeveloped a minor in Hes sports com. In into this her we wanted to offeracademic programm and, as you mentioned, Erick at the graduate level with ourNBA concentration, we also have a graduate certificate and Undergradcertificate and undergraduate Bba concentration and a coachingcertificate, and so we've really expanded. The programs on the academicside of eport so offer a lot of opportunities for students tounderstand the industry and these sports far beyond the gaming side of it,and so with the NBA concentration. We just started that this year we justfinished our first semester right now. We have four full time: students, onepart time student taking those courses. The feedback has been tremendous fromthose students, because what we've been able to do is find people that work inthe industry, and one of our partnerships is with the Washington,justice, Overwatch League team, and it's it's the first partnership of itskind for any university with any professional esports team, where theyoffer not only internships every semester to students, but also one oftheir front office staff actually is an addjunct professor for us in our NBAprogram, where he is teaching our students very, very real world, realtime situations working on projects working on issues that are popping up,bring it in some guest speakers to grow their network and the studentsabsolutely love it. I have a couple students that are pretty notorious for.Oh, I didn't get anything out of that class. I didn't get he out of thatclass, but when it came to these these esports classes with people in theindustry, they were blown away and tell me Oh my gosh. I didn't know there wasthat much to EA ports and I learn more and one semester than I have in thelast three years by playing and competing and coaching in the esportsindustry, a totable, I'm glad you got something out of that one, becausethese are the real people that are making the industry go, and so thefeedback has been tremendous, we're...

...hoping to continue to grow thoseprograms and expand those opportunities to people either at Shinandoa orvisiting students if they want to take the online certificate of the graduatelevel. But yeah it's been. It's been great and we've had a lot of supportfrom the university and from the community continue to offer theseprograms and develop and expand them, and the initial response has beenfantastic. We know where we need to work on it and improve things, but it'sbeen off to a great start. Jo, I love how broadly you're thinking about thepotential be sports, both from a cross departmental curriculum standpoint froma CIFIC partnership stanppoint. It's really really impressive and excitingany next TEPs advice for institutions listening considering the accelerationof their esports adoption. After hearing what they're hearing but maystill be skeptical of the value or not sure how to sell it upstairs whereshoul,they start first, oh get started, you know, there's you've got to get off theground. You've got to start somewhere, it's okay to start small, it's okay toonly start with one competitive team or offer one class. If you want to work onthe academic side, you know some of the things you have to have. You have tohave some administrative support. You got to find people that are willing totake a chance. E sports is not inside the box, traditional thinking an itcomes to higher education and academia. It is a totally different area that,yes, there are critics and there's criticism to what we do here and Itotally get- and I welcome all criticism, because it allows me toreflect on what we're doing, to make sure that we're offering what thestudents are expecting and providing them the opportunities that theydeserve and that ththey're wanting, and so I welcome all criticism and it'sabout having that conversation, you know, and so what I recommend to otheruniversities and institutions looking to develop. Hese sports is number onefind that person on campus. That is going to be the quote unquote championfor esports that can really go to bat for students. Talk to administration,Talk to faculty talk to Curicum Committees, talk to the community, talkto parents about what esports has an opportunity to do on that collegecampus. Where are the educational opportunities that exist throughEsports, but you've got to have that one person that will really be thatchampion for EST forts, no matter what part of these sports you're talkingabout, whether is the academic, the competitive professional development,whatever it might be, you've got to have that. One person that is that goto person on campus- that is a big part- you've got to get some administratorsupport. Our University President was on board with e sports from thecompetitive side point from the academic side point from day zero.Before even day one happened. She was on board and wanted she like. Let'sgrow it, let's do it. This is exciting, and I said: okay, we don't. I don'tknow what that looks like. Let's do it, and so you know it was it's a projectof passion, and so I encourage universities and institutions to you'vegot to get started somewhere. You've got to get started and you've got to becareful that you can troll once you get started because e sports can get out ofcontrol very quickly because students will say. Oh, we should play this game.Let's play this game. Oh let's try this! Let's talk to these people, let's buildthat! Let's buy my let's buy this, I just say hold on: Let's think aboutthis strategically, let's think long term about what we're doing and whatwe're building you can't let the fire be an explosion. It's GOITG to be acontrolled burn and you got to growt organically and do it in a way thatmakes sense for your university Eric, like I said earlier, it's got to fitinto the mission of your university and it's going to be different from everyother institution in the way that they set things up in the way that they dothings and that's the way it should be. Do what makes sense for your school.Your a administration Youre Current, an maybe more, most importantly, yourfuture students. What is the the way that nake sense is it? Does it make SISo offer scholarships? Does it make sense to offer only one or two games?Is it make sense to offer fifteen games? Does it make sense to offer academicprograms a major, a minor graduate programs? You know what what makessense for esports of your institution and how do you just get started? Is itequipment is a people? Is it students setting up a discord to get studentstalking and interested in this? Let it...

...grow organically. Is it a topdownapproaches at a bottom up approach? You know so there's so many different waysto do it, but you just got to do it. You've got to just get start. You gotto be willing to take that chance to be comfortable being uncomfortable. Youknow, don't be afraid to ask people. How did you do it? What do you do withthis situation? What kind of games did you do? What kind of leagues did youjoin and then take that to what makes sense for your university and make ityour own? Because then you have something that you can talk to studentsabout about how you operate differently, that other colleges or programs theymight be looking at. So that's, wmy biggest piece of deviceis at find that champion and just find a way to get started in a way thatmakes sense for you and your institution love your universities,Leadership Heer. I love that we all get to learn off your curve. Joy. Thank you.So much for your time today. What's the best place for listeners to connectwith you, if they have any followup questions, yeah the best way is email,you know or twitter. So my email, it's confusing it's j, Ga Wrysi at Su Diedutwitter, is at joy GARISIAC. That name is terrible. I wish I didn't have mywhole last name in there because it's hard to spell, but believe me, there'sno other GERISIAC out there. So if you can find at Joey Garisiac, that'sdefinitely me so either. One of those ways is absolutely fine to reach out. Ilove talking to people about this and trying to help out as much as I can andso email, twitter. The best was to start that conversation and then lateron, discord. Discord. Discord is going to be the best way to continue thoseconversations awesome thanks. So much for joining us. Toay Joyy, thanksfarric attracting today's new post, traditional learners means adopting newenrolmant strategies. Heliks educations data driven enterprise, wide approachto enrollment growth is uniquely helping colleges and universitiesthrive in this new education, landscape and Helex has just published the secondedition of their enrollment growth playbook, with fifty percent brand newcontent on how institutions can solvetoday's most pressing enrolmentgrowth challenges download it today for free at helocs, Educationcom playbook you've been listening to enrolmentgrowth university from helics education to ensure that you never miss anepisode subscribe to the show in Itunes or your favorite podcast player. Thankyou so much for listening until next time.

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