New Ways to Demonstrate Student ROI

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Nick Ducoff, author and CEO at Edmit, joined the podcast to talk about public distrust in higher ed’s value and all the new ways higher ed is working to demonstrate student ROI.

Seventy two per cent of private nonprofit for your institutions are both high price and high quality, and onlytwelve per cent or high price and low quality. The problem is that, while avast majority of colleges are high priced and high quality, studenperception is different. You're listening to enrolment growth,university from helic education, the best professional development podcastfor higher education leaders looking to grow in Romant at their college oruniversity, whether you're looking for fresh and Roman growth techniques andstrategies or tools and resources. You've come to the right place. Let'sget into the show, welcome back to unromantic a proudmember of the connect Edu podcast network, I'm Erick Olson with HeelisEducation and we're here today with Nick Dukovka, author of better offafter college, a guide to paying for college with more aid and less debt andC E O at admit. Nick welcome to the...

...show. Thank you so much for having mereally excited to talk with you today about new ways. Higher Red is workingto demonstrate students Roi before we dig in. Can you get the listeners alittle bit of background on magnet sure admit, helps high school students andtheir families, Make Smarter College and career decisions, perfect, elevator,Fitch and great background for what we're going to dig into today, becauseGeddis kind kind of just bed with where we are right now? Can you remind uswhere the public is right now in regard to their trust in colleges? Return oninvestment, consumer sentiment has become so negative that over half ofcollege students agree with the statement. That quote my institutiononly cares about the money it can get for me and quote that's according to arecent survey by Third Way, a think tank and is really incredible to thinkabout. Eighty percent of students say they're concerned about getting anytype of job when they graduate according to a different study fromThird Way, and when you think about...

...that, why would students pay a highprice for college if they don't think they'll get a job at all aftergraduating and according to another study from e c MC, just one fourth ofstudents believe a four. Your degree is the only route to a good job. One of myfounder Piers Austin, all read the founder of Coating Boot Camp Landoschool has summed it up. I think rather nicely. He says there are a lot ofschools that shouldn't exist and there are a whole bunch of schools thatshould the problem is the average seventeen year old has no idea, whichis which and there's nothing out there to help them until you start to alignin sin as financially in some way will continue to have crazy, surplus andcrazy shortages, and I think that's really a stud. So we're aware there isthis massive public facing problem here. Let's talk about some of thosepotential solutions, both internally that institutions are working on aswell as federally. Can you clarify the primary goals behind a gamefulemployment rule and what institutions...

...might be most impacted either way by the Biden Administration? We breantthis sure, so the Department of Education under President Obamaestablish the gainful employment regulation to ensure that programs,specifically at four private schools, didn't result in excessive debtrelative to a graduate's income and that third way study. I recently citedlooked at price to quality ratios of colleges and found that seventy two percent, a private non profit for your institutions are both high price andhigh quality, and only twelve per cent or high price and low quality. Theproblem is that, while a vast majority of colleges are high price and highquality, Sud perception is different. Compare that, though, that roughly fourout of five for profit for your colleges, almost eighty percent arehigh price and low quality compared to just twelve percent of non profits, andso the gameful employment regulation was really specifically focused on thatcohort of colleges that really hasn't...

...driven positive outcomes for studentsthat have attended and what is the hope behind, not just providing transparencythere, but help us understand the the logistics, the mechanics of what againful employment rule might do yeah. Well, so it's a stick. Schools thatdon't meet the gainful employment rule aren't eligible for title for federalfunding, so you know they obviously want to be able to receive federaltheir student for their students, federal financial aid and student loans,and so you know it's really a way to keep schools, honest and workingtowards providing positive outcomes for graduates. Let's talk about a non nisiconsent of this idea that the democratization of education solves allthings. Many of us from high red believe that to some degree, let's talkabout the college score card. Has the increased transparency of collegeoutcomes seem to impact student choice yet also, I would say the biggestsuccess of the college score card has...

...been what it's done, to enable theprivate sector to build on the data and provide more tools and actionableguidance for students. You know the college score card website itselfmaintained by the Department of Education I think has received. Youknow somewhat underwells traffic, but then again you know how many federalweb sites do you frequently visit on the Internet right. So you know Iwouldn't necessarily hold that against them. I think they've done tremendouswork at compiling an unbelievably rich and valuable data set that you know hasled to academic research. You know literature in the field and softwareproducts like Edmond, so we have the Fed thinking about the levers that arewithin their control to influence student behavior, citizen behavior.Let's talk about inside of our campuses from a messaging stand, full point froma persuasion standpoint, as colleges work to find new ways to tell theirvalue story in a way that sticks to...

...help us understand. Some of these valueacronym than many of us, are turning to see and how they're calculated yeah sothere's so many different ways to calculate Roi and I recently spoke tothe Marketing Department of a large financial institution. There was- maybeyou know, fifty marketers in the audience, and I asked them if they knewwhat the Economy Ri stood for to just raise your hand and I'd say you knowabout half, raise their hands so you're talking about folks responsible formessaging to the consumer at a financial stitution and only half ofthem know what our I is, and you know,there's no judge, I'm not passing any judgment on that. It's just the fact is,there's a lot of jargon. You know when you're talking about measuringfinancial returns and it's complicated, but there are a number of approachesout there now that I think are really helpful and you know moving towards,hopefully a...

Ri calculation that can becomeuniversal. I think we're still a bit of ways off from that, but the center onEducation and Work Force at Georgetown University and pay scale both have Roiapproaches that allow future returns to be compared to an up front investmentto day and the Brookings Institute takes a different approach. As youmentioned, it analyzes the college's value added, which is the differencebetween actual earnings outcomes and the outcomes. One would expect given astudents, characteristics and comparable colleges. The fourthapproach. I've looked at his third ways, pep or price, or earnings premium, andthat's used to determine the number of years it takes to pay off the cost ofearning the degree. You said something interesting there,and so I'll, maybe give you a double war old question. One: Do you find anyof these metrics more compelling? If we're looking for that universal metricor to your point, is it only helpful if it becomes a universal metric and onethat all the colleges that a student is...

...considering are utilizing? So I cancompare and contrast with them, and you know I think, there's there's pros andcons to each of these different approaches. For example, George towns approach. You know theyhumbly call their effort at first try and their calculations are quitesophisticated and well considered, but because of the sophistication aseventeen year old might have difficulty understanding it and theyactually produced the data with multiple time periods for that atpresent, ally calculation and students are already suffering from choice,overload so having to evaluate and choose between multiple N P timeperiods, and you can imagine how that could become overwhelming nick. Do youbelieve college is worth it? Yes, there's so many different ways todemonstrate that you know the most I think prevalent. That people cite isthat college graduates tend to earn on average about a million dollars more inlifetime earnings than their non...

...college graduate peers and, as thethird way research indicates most non profit. Higher education institutionsare high quality. The problem is that they're also high price, the New Yorktens reporter run Leber, who I consider a friend artfully details. How thingsgot this way in his new book, The price he pay for college. He also notes thatthe return on investment of college in the form of higher wages is fourteenper cent annually or twice the typical stock market return. So if you told mehey, you can do this thing and you're going to get double the return of thestock market. You know that's hard to be. That said, you know. We all knowthat too many students unfortunately start with the best of intentions andfor any variety of reasons, don't graduate and have you know some debtand no degree, and it's it's those students in particular at that my heartreally goes up for because they don't get the benefit of the earnings premium,but they still have the saddling of student an so. This is. This is a greattomatin of kind of. I think, where we...

...are in this argument. A Nick just gaveus a wonderful quantitative, factual understanding in the value of college,and yet many don't feel that it's true Nick, how do we translate thoseQuantitative Facts About College Roy into public belief and trust in itsvalue yeah? So I think we need to come up with really simple and easy tounderstand measures that seventeen year old and their parents can readilyunderstand. So, for example, we use stop like colors, you know red bad,green good and we reinforce those ranking with a great system. You knowsee bad a good. So when you put those together Red Sea, bad green, a good,you know it's probably overly simplistic, but users get it, and youknow I think, as long as folks are you know, making you directionally correctchoices, they'll be better off and you know that's, ultimately, you know theintention behind what we do at admit...

...and I think what most of these, if notall, of these folks that are putting together these Ri calculations aretrying to achieve as well. It's complicated, though right so you, forexample, some of these ARY calculations don't take relative income into account,only cost. So a concern about those approaches is that that they could leadto under matching, because it makes inexpensive programs that can be paidoff relatively quickly. Look really really good, however, it hides the factthat they may have considerably lower career earnings potential than othercolleges. That may be sitely more expensive. So I don't know that there'sa silver bullet. I think if there was one you know one of these smart folks,whether at Georgetown Brookings Third Way, you know etcetera would have foundit. You know, but I think that the great news is we're all starting tocollaborate a little bit you're starting to see you know moreliterature out there around this topic and conversation. You know, thanks topeople like you, who've invited me to join you today, and so I think that'spromising and you know ultimately we'll...

...find something that is compelling andcould you know, work towards becoming a universal standard. Super Helpful SuperHopal Nick. Can you leave us with any next step advice, institutions who arehearing this wore saying? Yes, I believe it. I agree. We want to tellthe story better on our website when people look at our tuition page. How dowe help them understand the real real financial story here and in a way thatreally really highlights the value that were providing? Where should they start?First well, I'll just note two colleges that I often sit. One is Grove CityCollege in Pennsylvania and I appreciate that they cite scriptureproverbs eleven one a while sharing their commitment to doing truthfullyand their pricing avoiding what they call the problematic practice ofunfunded tuition discounting and they further claim to set their tuition. Iwould it actually cost educated student. You know I haven't independentlyvalidated that, but I think that's a...

...pretty bold statement to say we arecharging you our cost and then you have someone like de Pau University inIndiana. They make a different promise to students, their gold commitment assure as alumni that they'd a paw and that Topau with a w degree, maintainsits value and that's a bold commitment as well. They're saying hey: If yougraduate from here we're going to make sure that that this was worth it andthat's the question that we hear that's how how students and parents that wetalk to frame it. They say. Is this going to be worth it and that's reallythe framing that I think colleges should consider, because, as the thirdway research shows, seventy two percent of non profits are high quality. Theyalso happen to be high cost, and so you need to be able to really distinguishthe value. That is it worth it question because most colleges just really can'tproduce pricing and those that have tried with tuition resets have foundchallenges because it becomes a slippery slope. So the best way toapproach it, I think, is by really...

...demonstrating the value, the investmentand how it pays off for students, even if it costs quite a lot- and you knowfifty thousand hundred thousand hundred fifty thousand turn thousand. That'sall a lot right, no matter how you got it nick thanks. So much of your timetoday, what's the best place for listeners to connect with you or yourteam. If they have any follow up questions, so you can find me ontwitter at Nick Duco, that's in ick Duc off and you can check out edme at EdMit Edminson thanks so much for joining US Studii. Thanks for having me or talkto you soon, attracting today's new post, traditional learners meansadopting new enrollment strategies. helic educations data driven enterprise,wide approach to enrollment growth is uniquely helping colleges anduniversities thrive in this new education landscape and he lock hasjust published the second edition of their enrollment growth play book withfifty percent brand new content on how...

...institutions can solve today's mostpressing and romant growth challenges download it today for free at HelosEducation Com play book, you've been listening to enrolmentgrowth university from helis education to ensure that you never missed anepisode subscribe to the show in Iton or your favorite podcast player. Thankyou so much for listening until next time E T.

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